Plato at the Googleplex

Rebecca Goldstein: "Plato at the Googleplex" | Talks at Google

An Argument Against the Platonic World

 Pierre Curie (1894): “Asymmetry is what creates a phenomenon.”

 Against symmetry,  is what constitutes time as a measure. So there is this argument in there too.:)

My aim in this essay is to propose a conception of mathematics that is fully consonant with naturalism. By that I mean the hypothesis that everything that exists is part of the natural world, which makes up a unitary whole. This is in contradiction with the Platonic view of mathematics held by many physicists and mathematicians according to which, mathematical truths are facts about mathematical objects which exist in a separate, timeless realm of reality, which exists apart from and in addition to physical reality. -A naturalist account of the limited, and hence reasonable, effectiveness of mathematics in physics

 The point I think I am making, is that in issuance of any position, any idea has to emerge from an a prior state in order for the "unitary whole" to be fully understood? Timeless, becomes an illogical position, since any idea in itself becomes an "asymmetrical view" as a product of the phenomenal world. Symmetry then implies, a need for, and a better description of the unitary whole.

There is a constant theme that I observed with Lee Smolin regarding the effectiveness of the idea about what the Platonic world means in face of being a realist of the natural world. So in one stroke,  if we could but eliminate the question about the Platonic world of forms,  would we see that Platonism is a duelist of nature, and not a realist of the kind that exists as a product of the natural world. But more then this, the idea somehow that the platonic world is a timeless truth about our existence.

The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences by Eugene Wigner

The great mathematician fully, almost ruthlessly, exploits the domain of permissible reasoning and skirts the impermissible. That recklessness does not lead him into a morass of contradictions is a miracle in itself: certainly it is hard to believe that our reasoning power was brought, by Darwin's process of natural selection, to the perfection which it seems to possess. However, this is not our present subject. The principal point which will have to be recalled later is that the mathematician could formulate only a handful of interesting theorems without defining concepts beyond those contained in the axioms and that the concepts outside those contained in the axioms are defined with a view of permitting ingenious logical operations which appeal to our aesthetic sense both as operations and also in their results of great generality and simplicity.

[3 M. Polanyi, in his Personal Knowledge (Chicago: University of Chicago
Press, 1958), says: "All these difficulties are but consequences of our
refusal to see that mathematics cannot be defined without acknowledging
its most obvious feature: namely, that it is interesting" (p 188).]

So you can see that I attain one end of the argument,  against being a naturalist,  given I hold to views about the Platonic world? Against FXQi, and its awarding program regarding the selection of the subject as an awardee, if I counter Lee's perspective?

There are many other classes of things that are evoked. There are forms of poetry and music that have rigid rules which define vast or countably infinite sets of possible realizations. They were invented, it is absurd to think that haiku or the blues existed before particular people made the first one. Once defined there are many discoveries to be made exploring the landscape of possible realizations of the rules. A master may experience the senses of discovery, beauty and wonder, but these are not arguments for the prior or timeless existence of the art form independent of human creativity.  See:  A naturalist account of the limited, and hence reasonable, effectiveness of mathematics in physicsBy Lee Smolin

I have my own views about what constitutes what a naturalist is in face of what Lee Smolin grants it to be in face of the argument regarding what is an false as an argument about what is invented or discovered.  So of course,  full and foremost, what is a naturalist?

But again,  let us be reminded of the poet or the artist,

Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty, a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture, without appeal to any part of our weaker nature, without the gorgeous trappings of painting or music, yet sublimely pure, and capable of a stern perfection such as only the greatest art can show. The true spirit of delight, the exaltation, the sense of being more than Man, which is the touchstone of the highest excellence, is to be found in mathematics as surely as in poetry. --BERTRAND RUSSELL, Study of Mathematics

***

You see, Lee Smolin's argument regarding naturalism falls apart when we consider the context of the nature of the quasi-crystal given,  we understand the nature of the quasi-crystal signature? It is necessary to understand this history.



See Also:

• The Truth of Symmetry 
• The Form of the Good
• Foundations of Mathematics

The Form of the Good

SOCRATES:  Tell me then, by Zeus, what is that excellent [págkalon, "all beautiful"] aim [érgon, "work, deed"] that the gods achieve, using us as their servants?
 
Plato, Euthyphro, 13e, translated by G.M.A. Grube [Hackett Publishing, 1981, p.19; Greek text, Plato -- Euthryphro, Apology, Crito, Phaedo, Phaedrus, Loeb Classical Library, Harvard, 1914-1956, pp.50-52]

In the Republic, Plato sets aside a direct definition of the "good itself" (autò t'agathón). Socrates says that instead we will get something in the nature of the "offspring" (ékgonos) or "interest" (tókos) on the good [Republic, 506 E]. For this "offspring," Plato offers an analogy:  The Good is to the intelligible world, the world of Being and the Forms, as the sun is to the visible world. As light makes vision possible in the material world, and so also opinion about such objects, the Form of the Good "gives their truth to the objects of knowledge and power of knowing to the knower..." [Loeb Classical Library, Plato VI Republic II, translated by Paul Shorey, Harvard University Press, 1935-1970, pp.94-95]. Furthermore, the objects of knowledge derive from the Form of the Good not only the power of being known, but their "very existence and essence" (tò eînaí te kaì hè ousía) [509B], although the Good itself "transcends essence" in "dignity and power" [ibid. pp.106-107]. The word here translated "essence" is ousía, which in Aristotelian terminology is the essence (essentia) of things, i.e. what they are. If Plato has something similar in mind, then the objects of knowledge derive from the good both their existence and their character. See: A Lecture on the Good,  by
Kelley L. Ross, Ph.D.

***

This below was a earlier attempt to define the idea of the Good and Form in context of the painting called Betrayal of Images" by Rene Magritte. 1929 painting on which is written "This is not a Pipe"

                    Probabilties
                 (The Fifth Dimension)
                         |
                         |
                  Idea of the pipe
                        / \
                       /   \
                      /     \
                 Picture of the pipe
                    /         \
                   /           \
                  /             \
               The real pipe and form  
                                         

The fifth dimension was a attempt by myself to explaining the dimensional shift from the four dimension(space-time) to the fifth. Four leads into three was an ancient idea(Quadrivium ad Trivium) that came to mind that we may seek to explain as humanities attempt at perfecting. But at the same time such a descendent from the heaven into the mind of humanity, as the idea. A effective expression of the idea into form.

So such truths were important to me as to how we discover them. I am saying that this is a capable feature in all of us, and it was an attempt to explain how this is done. Deductive Logic while a representation of Aristotle, Aristotle pointed the way toward Plato. Aristotle pointed the way to Plato's explanation of the Good as it may have meant to Plato and what Aristotle may of disagreed with.

Plato's use of Socrates in the dialogues was specific to Plato's explaining what he meant by heaven. This is not a theological revelation for Christianity in my view as to the principles of Plato, as to what heaven meant. But something quite capable as to what heaven may mean as we grasp the understanding of the Good and inspection as to the Theory of Forms.

Indirectly, Aristotle then introduce the idea then of the universal and the particulars?

***

Distances” Determine Geometry
Describe an object with a table of distances between points.
Describe spacetime with a table of intervals between events
It is not my purpose in this discussion to represent the general theory of relativity as a system that is as simple and as logical as possible, and with the minimum number of axioms; but my main object here is to develop this theory in such a way that the reader will feel that the path we have entered upon is psychologically the natural one, and that the underlying assumptions will seem to have the highest possible degree of security.
—Albert Einstein

http://www.eftaylor.com/pub/chapter2.pdf

***

"Symmetry breaking illustrated": – high energy levels (left) the ball settles in the center, and the result is symmetrical. At lower energy levels (right), the overall "rules" remain symmetrical, but the "Mexican hat" potential comes into effect: "local" symmetry inevitably becomes broken since eventually the ball must roll one way (at random) and not another.

If one recognizes such a state as to imply that Heaven exists in such perfection and beauty, then what causes the asymmetry to be broken? Moving into a dualistic notion of operation, would signify a symmetry breaking?

The term “symmetry” derives from the Greek words sun (meaning ‘with’ or ‘together’) and metron (‘measure’), yielding summetria, and originally indicated a relation of commensurability (such is the meaning codified in Euclid's Elements for example). It quickly acquired a further, more general, meaning: that of a proportion relation, grounded on (integer) numbers, and with the function of harmonizing the different elements into a unitary whole. From the outset, then, symmetry was closely related to harmony, beauty, and unity, and this was to prove decisive for its role in theories of nature. In Plato's Timaeus, for example, the regular polyhedra are afforded a central place in the doctrine of natural elements for the proportions they contain and the beauty of their forms: fire has the form of the regular tetrahedron, earth the form of the cube, air the form of the regular octahedron, water the form of the regular icosahedron, while the regular dodecahedron is used for the form of the entire universe. The history of science provides another paradigmatic example of the use of these figures as basic ingredients in physical description: Kepler's 1596 Mysterium Cosmographicum presents a planetary architecture grounded on the five regular solids.Symmetry and Symmetry Breaking -The Concept of Symmetry

Symmetry Breaking, means to measure.

***

One may need to recognize some aspect of consciousness and its capabilities, and thus, the parameters by which one thinks of how their consciousness operates, can become the limitations that that one applies to all(deluded). This then becomes "an application" to self.

An analogy to this situation might be what is thought to happen to the forces of nature in modern physics, where a single, original, unified force is separated into several forces by "spontaneous symmetry breaking." The form of consciousness as, according to Brentano and Husserl, the intentional relationship of subject and object, itself represents an asymmetry, breaking the symmetry of an existence where there is no distinction between subject and object. Existence as such is thus broken by the form of consciousness, and it becomes the forms of value, good and evil, right and wrong, the beautiful and the ugly, etc., as these vary independently over and against the simple factual existence of objects in the phenomenal world, or even against each other in the phenomenon of moral dilemmas (i.e. doing right results in evils, while doing wrong results in goods). A Lecture on the Good -http://www.friesian.com/good.htm

Bold added for emphasis by me.

The connection between superfluidity and symmetry breaking has had a glorious history. It has left us a rich legacy of fertile ideas, that seems far from exhaustion. PG 60 Superfluidity and Symmetry Breaking

You have to know what your doing when you apply those constraints to yourself. So maybe, there is this bigger picture.

Pierre Curie (1894): “Asymmetry is what creates a phenomenon.”

Justice

Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature.

Plato's Concept Of Justice: An Analysis Bold was added by me for emphasis.

The element of the syllogism? The Syntax. Any thoughts here then as to semantics, as to what then resides in the human being?

What about merit as to what is to be defined as the gold person, is really about the values a person has? Even though Plato define them as philosophers, I think as if by a natural inclination, we have learnt to judge accordingly, as an understanding of a position with which we assume things to be. To me this may be insightful as to the nature of the individual, that by such introspection learns to understand these character positions.

So I am thinking this is indeed built into an individual, just lost to inspection as to the natures of our characters?

Socratic questioning (or Socratic maieutics)[1] is disciplined questioning that can be used to pursue thought in many directions and for many purposes, including: to explore complex ideas, to get to the truth of things, to open up issues and problems, to uncover assumptions, to analyze concepts, to distinguish what we know from what we don't know, to follow out logical implications of thought or to control the discussion. The key to distinguishing Socratic questioning from questioning per se is that Socratic questioning is systematic, disciplined, deep and usually focuses on fundamental concepts, principles, theories, issues or problems. Socratic questioning is referred to in teaching, and has gained currency as a concept in education particularly in the past two decades.[citation needed] Teachers, students or indeed anyone interested in probing thinking at a deep level can and should construct Socratic questions and engage in these questions.[2] Socratic questioning and its variants has also been extensively used in psychotherapy.

So in reference to what has survived for so many years what is the conceptual law of justice while the idea could have deeper implications to it? How did you come to know what you know, or don't know. So the method for determination? Nicomachean Ethics?


In the larger context of society, what is good governance, as to imply that Descision making, is a critical part of understanding such governance? In a just society, we come to understand the merits of the individual as we would expect good governance to rule, and as such good governance by the individual, becomes good governance of the country

ABSTRACT
Recently the terms "governance" and "good governance" are being increasingly used in development literature. Bad governance is being increasingly regarded as one of the root causes of all evil within our societies. Major donors and international financial institutions are increasingly basing their aid and loans on the condition that reforms that ensure "good governance" are undertaken.

This article tries to explain, as simply as possible, what "governance" and "good governance" means. What is Good Governance?

 In historical context below the question of philosophical arguments. While talking about immortality with regard to Plato, how does this affect judgement in relation to how we may perceive justice.

Opposites Argument 70a–72e. Whatever has an opposite comes to be from its opposite; the cold from the warm, the weaker from the stronger, the sleeping from the waking. Between every pair of opposites there must always be two processes of transformation, e.g. cooling down and warming up, falling asleep and waking up. Living and dead are evidently opposites, and one of the processes between them, namely dying, is evident to us. We may infer that there is a second process by which living things and stuff come from dead things or stuff. This conclusion is taken (by a palpable equivocation on ‘the dead’) to mean that ‘the souls of the dead must be somewhere whence they can come back again’. An appendix argues that if the process from life to death were not matched by a process from death to life, then the original stock of living things would have been exhausted in the infinite past.

Recollection Argument 73a–77e. Our ability to give the right answers in abstract discussions shows that we possess a kind of knowledge (of the Forms, as it happens) that we must have acquired before birth. It follows that ‘our souls existed apart from the body before they took on human form’. That they continue to exist after we die is said to follow by combining this proof with the Opposites Argument outlined above. (On this and the related argument of Plato’s Meno 81 ff. see Innateness in ancient philosophy.)

Resemblance Argument 78b–84b Forms and particulars differ systematically: Forms are invisible, unchanging, uniform and eternal, where particulars are visible, changeable, composite and perishable. The human soul is invisible too, and it investigates Forms without the aid of bodily senses. By ruling a particular body it resembles the divine which rules and leads. Thus the soul is ‘most like the divine, deathless, intelligible, uniform, and indissoluble’. Its uniformity and partlessness exempt it from the decomposition that destroys compounded bodies; for all these reasons we may conclude that it is immortal. (Significantly, it is never claimed that the soul actually is a Form, and the theory of soul-construction in the Timaeus 35 explicitly makes souls a third class of entities distinct from Forms and bodies.) BRENNAN, TAD (2002). Immortality in ancient philosophy. In E. Craig (Ed.), Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy. London: Routledge. Retrieved February 22, 2015, from

Bold added for emphasis by me

As per Recollection argument above.....innate does not mean we become stifled and locked into position, but go through experience and instill further innate ideas in to our understanding. The objectified, becomes as part of this life experience. Objectified knowledge becomes part of the cycle regarding what comes with us through another round.

the theory of soul-construction in the Timaeus 35 explicitly makes souls a third class of entities distinct from Forms and bodies. see above link

If not the forms or the body what would they be referring too?

As Plato tells it, the beautiful orderliness of the universe is not only the manifestation of Intellect; it is also the model for rational souls to understand and to emulate. Such understanding and emulation restores those souls to their original state of excellence, a state that was lost in their embodiment. There is, then, an explicit ethical and religious dimension to the discourse. Plato's Timaeus -Zeyl, Donald, "Plato's Timaeus", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2014 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), 

So justice in its examination may suggest that this is a faculty of the the rational mind according to historical context. Any attempts to illicit judgmental affairs as to the state would require a rational mind? What does this mean in the modernization of our cultures so as to express the most desired cultural definition of this return to the rationalistic fervor and recognition of this idea of the receptacle?

Doe this literally mean to create a third person, a judge?

The second main section begins with the introduction of the receptacle, a “third kind” alongside the familiar paradeigmatic forms and the generated images of the forms (49a1–4, 52a8, d2–4). The receptacle appears to have the dual role of serving both as material substratum, and as spatial field. Timaeus' account of the receptacle is elusive and presents several interpretive difficulties, some of which will be discussed below. In the “pre-cosmic” state (the state “prior to” the intervention of the Craftsman) the receptacle is subject to erratic and disorderly motions, and its contents are mere “traces” (ichnê, 53b2) of the subsequently articulated four “kinds” (the so-called elements): fire, air, water and earth. The Craftsman begins by constructing four of the regular solids as the primary corpuscles of each of these four kinds. These solids have faces that are made up (ultimately) of two types of right-angled triangles—the half-equilateral and the isosceles—and it is these triangles that are the ultimate “simples” of the physics of the dialogue. Because their triangles are similar (half-equilateral), only corpuscles of fire, air and water may be transformed into one another. Each of the four kinds has properties that are determined by the constitution of their respective corpuscles, and these properties in turn determine how the particles act upon and react to one another. (It is here that Necessity plays its important role in Timaeus' account.) Plato's Timaeus -Zeyl, Donald, "Plato's Timaeus", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2014 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.),.

A judge would have to over come disorderliness and exemplify the quest for rationalism. If these attributes are innate, what would the third person represent as if we were to sit in judgement of the life we had lived. How would we weight our souls truth of the rational mind to something that is of greater truth and import, as if to find it weighed against something else? The golden heart against some philosophical weighed universal truth as a feather. How deep and significant this challenge in our own lives?

I am really trying to decipher "the meaning" of Justice.

As a mechanism, this may imply, an objective method toward a subjective ideal as we hope to evolve. A rationalistic mind would be then gifted with morality? You'd already be gifted as to make the right choice? If I am to take your meaning further then?

Yes, I am thinking beyond, toward a definition of Justice as to the individual, and, in context of morality, then, how is it the same as Justice. Would you have used small groups, large groups, small towns and large cities. If the essence of this justice is innate, so to as morality, then, it would not matter where the individual is?

If, I was to propose a question without let's say the data base with which to respond to this question, then, what answer is given, The answer is based on what? Discard everything you've learned. What is Justice?

So the evolving question regarding morality is an experience of this life yes? Or, is that something which is innate and linguistically overridden. Culturally and linguistically, you learned the language of your small town, big city which would have to be discarded or set as, semantics to the original meaning of Justice.

So as Universal Declaration in Preamble to the Charter, leads to article one.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.Universal Declaration of Human Rights -

Bold added for emphasis by me.

To be able "to reason" would mean having the capacity for understanding Justice? So was it right to say Justice has some first order logic to it so as to declare it as a universal law? Are we all gifted with rationalism?

 Brain scans link concern for justice with reason, not emotion - See more at: http://news.uchicago.edu/article/201...-emotion#.dpuf

I think it is more a recognition of something that already exists in you, our side of the small town, big town, that an insight as to the nature of this attribute, is how we as a soul may weight these things. This as to how a soul accomplishes from one life to the next. It has to be an inherent feature, for the idea of the rules(arguments) as listed earlier, to become an ideal.

So if you accept a NDE as part and parcel of the innate feature of our human condition then what attribute of the human mind would seek to accomplish that which we had taken to burden in this phase of our life being lived now? Are you living the truth with which you weigh against something to be defined as a "universal truth." How would you know this? How would you know what this truth is for you, is a process which all human would seek to verify, set as as a accomplishment as to having successful been living with that truth in order to say they indeed had lived life to this universal truth.

We would see an extroverted and objectified example of societies and not an internal perception, as to the nature of this judgement which may be held in abeyance until more information came through.

If you take in the picture of Raphael's school of Athens where do you see Plato pointing too. So to me, as a central figure, is a point exemplified as to what the soul is versus the body, as Aristotle with this ancient view expresses, as the body expressing mind. Seeing physically, all that is around you. Such an idea of balance in the world would have been a recognition of that which would become self evident through this interplay between Plato and Aristotle. This to exemplify this middle of the road. So it could not be Plato alone that Raphael wish to express, but something that required both, in order for the interaction of the world to allow something to become self evident. And, a leap of mind

I brought up the latest research of the manufacture of the thought body as something separate and manageable from the way in which we could create this third person. To free one self of the reins of the physicals as to explore with consciousness as one travels to what ever destination.....looses sight of this thought body.

But more importantly, there are these archetypes which we create, where as some form of this can be and is realized when we recognize higher consciousness as a functioning of this wisdom imparted within the dream world, to suggest, that this is wisdom of your own soul that sits in Judgement.

So such a model of this Justice would have to exist in my view, so as to impart something greater then a judgement in the natural world of the objectified, but truly opens the door to what we as humans also come into the world as retaining this pattern towards living of this life now. Your internal third person and guidance. Call it the higher self maybe?

This meta-cognitive view then would have relinquished the mind to a form, that mind leaps toward something of a more spiritual kind, not just deductive faculties in the state of Justice as explained in the natural world and objectified. Not just ethics and moral virtues.......but a history to draw from, and a spiritual one at that. But how fine and rarefied such a mind to leap where, and then we are back in the world.

Plato's Problem

Anamnesis

Meno

The claim is that one does not need to know what knowledge is before gaining knowledge, but rather one has a wealth of knowledge before ever gaining any experience

Perception and judging while decisive with regard to an attribute gifted of reason, shows what the person by character exemplifies according to this attributes judging or withholding judging until more information is attainable.

Brain scans link concern for justice with reason, not emotion - See more at: http://news.uchicago.edu/article/201...-emotion#.dpuf

Is Justice blind to the individual acting from innate abilities and carry overs who decides quickly? I can show from previous link this is not an emotive thing happening when given reasonable thought about Justice as brain is used with respect to the MRI and brain activity......so we use the body as a residual affect of what our consciousness does?

Yes I am aware now if taken from Plato alone......a revision in the Church then, and we may see Aristotle as to what exist around us as a focal point in the same person. This as a question about what is innate then and we listen to all the reasons why through inductive and deductive efforts......but indeed, we are talking about something else here. About the type of knowledge that a soul has gained from the incarnations versus what is gained from data in this life.

Socratic questioning (or Socratic maieutics)[1] is disciplined questioning that can be used to pursue thought in many directions and for many purposes, including: to explore complex ideas, to get to the truth of things, to open up issues and problems, to uncover assumptions, to analyze concepts, to distinguish what we know from what we don't know, to follow out logical implications of thought or to control the discussion. The key to distinguishing Socratic questioning from questioning per se is that Socratic questioning is systematic, disciplined, deep and usually focuses on fundamental concepts, principles, theories, issues or problems.

Socratic questioning is referred to in teaching, and has gained currency as a concept in education particularly in the past two decades.[citation needed] Teachers, students or indeed anyone interested in probing thinking at a deep level can and should construct Socratic questions and engage in these questions.[2] Socratic questioning and its variants has also been extensively used in psychotherapy.

So in reference to what has survived for so many years what is the conceptual law of justice while the idea could have deeper implications to it? How did you come to know what you know, or don't know. So the method for determination? Nicomachean Ethics?

Aristotle as a central figure in the picture of Raphael, was a response to Plato. It was a revision that philosophical may have been thought of by Raphael to exemplify the attributes of the Church at that point in time. This so as to question the significance of what evolved in the Church as well, as to what becomes self evident eventually requires a leap of mind.

Socrates
Socratic method
Socratic questioning

Meno (/ˈmiːnoʊ/; Greek: Μένων) is a Socratic dialogue written by Plato.

Bold and underline added by me for emphasis

The theme of the work is the Socratic question which had previously been explored in the works of Plato, Aristotle's friend and teacher, of how men should best live. In his Metaphysics, Aristotle described how Socrates, the friend and teacher of Plato, had turned philosophy to human questions, whereas Pre-Socratic philosophy had only been theoretical. Ethics, as now separated out for discussion by Aristotle, is practical rather than theoretical, in the original Aristotelian senses of these terms.[1] In other words, it is not only a contemplation about good living, because it also aims to create good living. It is therefore connected to Aristotle's other practical work, the Politics, which similarly aims at people becoming good. Ethics is about how individuals should best live, while the study of politics is from the perspective of a law-giver, looking at the good of a whole community.Nicomachean Ethics -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics

For what purpose? To be able to arrive at some distinction about what we know and how we know it or some relevance to the way in which some knowledge is innate, or that learned in this life by living it now?

Book V: Justice and Fairness: a moral virtue needing special discussionParticular justice is however the subject of this book, and it has already been divided into the lawful and the fair, which are two different aspects of universal justice or complete virtue. Concerning areas where being law-abiding might not be the same as being fair, Aristotle says that this should be discussed under the heading of Politics.[73] He then divides particular justice further into two parts: distribution of divisible goods and rectification in private transactions. The first part relates to members of a community in which it is possible for one person to have more or less of a good than another person. The second part of particular justice deals with rectification in transactions and this part is itself divided into two parts: voluntary and involuntary, and the involuntary are divided further into furtive and violent divisions.[74] The following chart showing divisions with Aristotle's discussion of Justice in Book V, based on Burger (2008) Appendix 3.

Justice in the City, or Justice in the soul(Appendix 3)?

In several of Plato's dialogues, Socrates promulgates the idea that knowledge is a matter of recollection, and not of learning, observation, or study.[46] He maintains this view somewhat at his own expense, because in many dialogues, Socrates complains of his forgetfulness. Socrates is often found arguing that knowledge is not empirical, and that it comes from divine insight. In many middle period dialogues, such as the Phaedo, Republic and Phaedrus Plato advocates a belief in the immortality of the soul, and several dialogues end with long speeches imagining the afterlife. More than one dialogue contrasts knowledge and opinion, perception and reality, nature and custom, and body and soul.Recurrent themes -

Is divine insight a leap of mind then, so as to arrive a some conclusion? We see such attributes of the historical overlay by today's world of events. We use systemic versions of historical significance to arrive at a understanding of where we are today, and in this sense we can talk about what survived and didn't survive. It is all in context of the virtual reality of this discussion? How relevant is it to today's world? Maybe, just write a virtual dialogue to help understand the spiritual essence of the principle of the divine as one takes that leap of mind?

I think we are arriving some consensus here even though we point to this dialogue, point to the writer of the dialogue, and raise the issues of the deeper questions about the relevance of Justice in today's world. About what people are talking about in regards to Reincarnation, or, about the raising of the dead, as a metaphor for what we can arise too?? Are these "good virtues" to have been given are the dialogues that verge on the ephemeral?

How strange that not only that such a perception might have saw a foundational method toward an attribute of the forms could have survived as a subject regarding quasi-crystals as to this underlying feature theorized so many years ago. But so too, much more then the survivability of a method by which we question and arrive at, a place in mind?

Just quickly, if no one told you how "to reason," how would you know to be able to do this? If you did not have this life experience, as of the now, then can we reason? Self evident or leap of mind is a position, which allows access to information that is intuited and comes from the soul?

Sure we can create false things so as to believe, describe a experience that doesn't match the events of say as a journalist, but we are talking about access to something else here. So you do have experience, but it comes from the soul?

If you are a good writer of the dialogues what survives by your example of the archetype as you become aware of it. What survived of Plato's writings? What survived of Socrates in Plato's writings.

Rationalists generally develop their view in two ways. First, they argue that there are cases where the content of our concepts or knowledge outstrips the information that sense experience can provide. Second, they construct accounts of how reason in some form or other provides that additional information about the world. Empiricists present complementary lines of thought. First, they develop accounts of how experience provides the information that rationalists cite, insofar as we have it in the first place. (Empiricists will at times opt for skepticism as an alternative to rationalism: if experience cannot provide the concepts or knowledge the rationalists cite, then we don't have them.) Second, empiricists attack the rationalists' accounts of how reason is a source of concepts or knowledge. SEE: Markie, Peter, "Rationalism vs. Empiricism http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ra...sm-empiricism/ , The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2013 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.),

Do you see a dichotomy within the way you are seeing? Point to the collective unconscious....where is that?

Michael Newton talks about his journey to his Past Life Therapy practice. Filmed in 2007 and finally uploaded for you all to see this amazing guy.

http://youtu.be/Fk3s40UnoDE

How would reason then manifest within context of any archetype given, that we would sit to reason according to the archetype our subconscious presents? Would there not be a difference between what you observe "as the archetype" that is present(the awareness of your lucid dreaming where recognition as EGO manifests[remember you are the story teller.]), versus, living the experience of the person?

If the late character of our sources may incite us to doubt the authenticity of this tradition, there remains that, in its spirit, it is in no way out of character, as can be seen by reading or rereading what Plato says about the sciences fit for the formation of philosophers in book VII of the Republic, and especially about geometry at Republic, VII, 526c8-527c11. We should only keep in mind that, for Plato, geometry, as well as all other mathematical sciences, is not an end in itself, but only a prerequisite meant to test and develop the power of abstraction in the student, that is, his ability to go beyond the level of sensible experience which keeps us within the "visible" realm, that of the material world, all the way to the pure intelligible. And geometry, as can be seen through the experiment with the slave boy in the Meno (Meno, 80d1-86d2), can also make us discover the existence of truths (that of a theorem of geometry such as, in the case of the Meno, the one about doubling a square) that may be said to be "transcendant" in that they don't depend upon what we may think about them, but have to be accepted by any reasonable being, which should lead us into wondering whether such transcendant truths might not exist as well in other areas, such as ethics and matters relating to men's ultimate happiness, whether we may be able to "demonstrate" them or not. See: Frequently Asked Questions about Plato by Bernard SUZANNE

Bold added for emphasis by me.

Secondly, I would ask that you pay attention to what you presented as frequency and energy, so as to see its use in the way in which Newton speaks. Is deeper in alpha or theta, really "out there in the world, or, inside the person"? Is the soul inside or outside the person?

Alva Noë - Why is Consciousness so baffling?

What is Consciousness? Why are we still baffled by this question? Our host Robert Lawrence Kuhn asks Alva Noë, in an interview from our series "Closer To Truth," currently airing on PBS stations nationwide. Check your local listings for air times.
For more videos and information, visit http://www.closertotruth.com

http://youtu.be/1aPeWc7Um1A

We've Been Looking for Consciousness in Wrong Place-Alva Noë
Getting Out of Our Heads - Alva Noë

The value of non-Euclidean geometry lies in its ability to liberate us from preconceived ideas in preparation for the time when exploration of physical laws might demand some geometry other than the Euclidean. Bernhard Riemann

In a projective sense(into the eye to the back of the brain) Alva Noe may referring to experience as if to include, the back of the apple as more then a direct examination......would include another form of experience, a wider view as if to see more then from this projective sense of being.

The way in which I see this expository view unfold is to recognize the geometry as higher versions being exemplified to include a explanation of Alva Noe's view as to the nature of consciousness as more then a restricted view. Alva I feel is speaking to that which rests in the sensorial world of the projected, as an inner expression of the outside world. But now more too, a "meta cognitive view." I see the question pushing the "boundaries of this limited projected view, " as less then what Alva Noe is speaking too.

It brings to mind what is suggested of Meno, as to the larger capacity of what Plato wrote of in the story of Meno with regard to the abstract. The quote above, as to suggest, Riemann is exemplary as well.

If the late character of our sources may incite us to doubt the authenticity of this tradition, there remains that, in its spirit, it is in no way out of character, as can be seen by reading or rereading what Plato says about the sciences fit for the formation of philosophers in book VII of the Republic, and especially about geometry at Republic, VII, 526c8-527c11. We should only keep in mind that, for Plato, geometry, as well as all other mathematical sciences, is not an end in itself, but only a prerequisite meant to test and develop the power of abstraction in the student, that is, his ability to go beyond the level of sensible experience which keeps us within the "visible" realm, that of the material world, all the way to the pure intelligible..... See: Frequently Asked Questions about Plato by Bernard SUZANNE

Bold added by me for emphasis.

These 4 stages also correspond to Plato's 4 levels of understanding, as described in his Analog of the Divided Line.

Tabular summary of the Divided Line

Segment	Type of knowledge or opinion	Affection of the psyche	Type of object	Method of the psyche or eye	Relative truth and reality
DE	Noesis (νόησις)	Knowledge: understanding of only the Intelligible (νοητόν)	Only Ideas, which are all given existence and truth by the Good itself (τὸ αὐτὸ ἀγαθόν)	The Psyche examines all hypotheses by the Dialectic making no use of likenesses, always moving towards a First Principle	Highest
CD	Dianoia (διάνοια)	Knowledge: thought that recognizes but is not only of the Intelligible	Some Ideas, specifically those of Geometry and Number	The Psyche assumes hypotheses while making use of likenesses, always moving towards final conclusions	High
BC	Pistis (πίστις)	Opinion: belief concerning visible things	visible things (ὁρατά)	The eye makes probable predictions upon observing visible things	low
AB	Eikasia (εἰκασία)	Opinion: conjectures concerning likenesses	likenesses of visible things (εἰκόνες)	The eye makes guesses upon observing likenesses of visible things	lowest

The Stage 1s argue and understand in terms of Eikasia.

The Stage 2s argue and understand in terms of Pistis.

The Stage 3s argue and understand in terms of Dianoia.

The Stage 4s argue and understand in terms of Noesis.

Socrates asks Glaucon to not only envision this unequally bisected line but to imagine further bisecting each of the two segments. Socrates explains that the four resulting segments represent four separate 'affections' (παθήματα) of the psyche. The lower two sections are said to represent the visible while the higher two are said to represent the intelligible. These affections are described in succession as corresponding to increasing levels of reality and truth from conjecture (εἰκασία) to belief (πίστις) to thought (διάνοια) and finally to understanding (νόησις). Furthermore this Analogy not only elaborates a theory of the psyche but also presents metaphysical and epistemological views. Analogy of the Divided Line -

Maybe in the context of what Justice is to mean in the larger context of the idea as a first principle. Applying any search to the "inherent truth" is as much a trail as that toward what the language spoken by you, is to ascertain as being your truth. So we all recognize that, and recognize your bias......and for some of us it is an understanding of the process itself as you speak toward your truth.

Plato describes "The Form of the Good", or more literally "the idea of the good" (ἡ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ ἰδέα), in his dialogue the Republic (508e2–3), speaking through the character of Socrates. Plato introduces several forms in his works, but identifies the Form of the Good as the superlative. This form is the one that allows a philosopher-in-training to advance to a philosopher-king. It can not be clearly seen or explained, but once it is recognized, it is the form that allows one to realize all the other forms. Form of the Good

Bold added for emphasis

Plato identifies how the Form of the Good allows for the cognizance to understand such difficult concepts as justice. He identifies knowledge and truth as important, but through Socrates (508d–e) says, “good is yet more prized”. He then proceeds to explain “although the good is not being” it is “superior to it in rank and power”, it is what “provides for knowledge and truth” (508e).[1] Usages in The Republic -

Plato's Theory of Forms

After Relativism

Watch more videos on iai.tv

***

 "...underwriting the form languages of ever more domains of mathematics is a set of deep patterns which not only offer access to a kind of ideality that Plato claimed to see the universe as created with in the Timaeus; more than this, the realm of Platonic forms is itself subsumed in this new set of design elements-- and their most general instances are not the regular solids, but crystallographic reflection groups. You know, those things the non-professionals call . . . kaleidoscopes! * (In the next exciting episode, we'll see how Derrida claims mathematics is the key to freeing us from 'logocentrism'-- then ask him why, then, he jettisoned the deepest structures of mathematical patterning just to make his name...)

* H. S. M. Coxeter, Regular Polytopes (New York: Dover, 1973) is the great classic text by a great creative force in this beautiful area of geometry (A polytope is an n-dimensional analog of a polygon or polyhedron. Chapter V of this book is entitled 'The Kaleidoscope'....)"

***

See Also:

• Answers to Question-Interesting
• Relativism
• Mind Maps: Mathematical Structures

Death is Not Final

You all have to know the hammer analogy was made aware to me about a week before this debate took place. Also,  a YouTube label given to this demonstration was posted under "gaming" so I find that kind of funny given the seriousness of this debate.

I pushed Number 1.  But, you also know my bias right so I did not think providing this image would hurt in an way given that you already have some insight into my perspective? My opinion at Sean's Blog as well pertaining to this subject.

So as I am going through the debate I thought it necessary to keep a running tab for my self so as to see from what position one is speaking.  So now that I know Sean is speaking from a Naturalist point of view. I will continue.

A metaphysics that goes beyond the commitments of science is simply unsupported by the best available evidence.^[27]

—Lynne Rudder Baker, Naturalism and the First-Person Perspective

 A naturalistic methodology (sometimes called an "inductive theory of science") has its value, no doubt.... I reject the naturalistic view: It is uncritical. Its upholders fail to notice that whenever they believe to have discovered a fact, they have only proposed a convention. Hence the convention is liable to turn into a dogma. This criticism of the naturalistic view applies not only to its criterion of meaning, but also to its idea of science, and consequently to its idea of empirical method.

— Karl R. Popper, The Logic of Scientific Discovery, (Routledge, 2002), pp. 52–53, ISBN 0-415-27844-9.

Okay I am at 36:58 of the video so I have had the opportunity to listen to the four speakers. I have to say oh my gosh, there is a lot here to consider, and a lot I have already considered. So I need to respond to that first part of the video.

As life calls us to do our things in the day to day, I also have a schedule today, so this posting will be broken up in terms of my response as to the first part of the video. Please be patient. It also gives me time to think about what has been said.

I want to open with the quote Sean responded too, of Eben Alexanders of Einstein. So give me time to drawn this comment out of Eben's book.

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks  should be. -Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

I am still ay 36:58 so I needed to finish what  what I have surmised in that first part so I can go on with the video. Below is something that I had written to my Aunt,  so hope she is okay with me repeating it here.  You will see that entry below. It basically sums up the first part of the debate for me.

As I was finishing listening to Steven Novella speak, the quote of Einstein, now gotten from Eben's book, Proof of Heaven under Prologue,  and response given by Sean Carroll was a matter of fact to the whole first part to me as it was for Sean to Eben's Alexanders use of the quote.

Something also interesting to me was Sean's admittance of wanting to believe (that death is not final) but at this point not being able too.That said a lot to me, and in the aspect of being a scientist,  I believe what he is saying.:) So I will continue on with the rest of the video now.

***

 In a note to my Aunt.

Hi Aunt Celine,

 I am a bit of a science buff when it comes to what is currently happening in science. I too had been reading about the NDE for quite a long time as well. Moody agrees with you, about science not quite ready. Since I have studied other aspects of consciousness research, it is my hope that one day we will understand this debate, as a recognition of who we all are as spiritual beings, in a physical body.

What Moody proposes is the beginning of a true dialogue based on logic and reason, and these stem from philosophy. So it is important to see the discussion in terms of where this dialogue can truly begin. Moody mentions pseudoscience and from that, his journey through philosophy. He is trying to set up a credible debate.

 I read Eben Alexander's book as well so I knew where he was coming from, as well I have been following Sean Carroll's science for sometime now. The only one that was sort of new to me was that Steve Novella, and as a neuroscientist, I am open to what he has to say. I must say then I am also a bit of philosopher that has had me venturing through aspect and developments about the Mind/ body debate that is going on, and that is where the science is saying that it is based on materialism. On my own, I have studied Plato and other philosophers.

 In order to accept materialism one has to believe, that consciousness is derived from the brain, while the other perspective is that the brain in my view, is what consciousness uses while the body is alive, but that consciousness can exist, once our body dies. That understanding is in contradiction to what science saids today, but I am saying to science, that they indeed do not have all the facts to make this conclusion even though they can simulate experience from manipulating the physical aspects of the body to produce the near death experience.

Religion has not helped me and I must say, that my upbringing within the Catholic Church has left much for me say, about its patriarchal construct, and how it falls short of providing support for what spiritual means to me. I hope you are not offended.

I do believe in a higher power, and I do believe that Heaven is capable in all of us now. In my education, I might of called it Symmetry, in the very beginning, and science has something to say about that. While I have a real study in reductionism, the work that has been going on, I believe eventually it will lead to an understanding within science, but it has to be developed, and in my view Moody's philosophical standpoint, is where we will start.

***

So I finished the rest of the video last night. There were somethings that were quite memorable to me that stood out.I wanted to quickly move to the end of the debate where each had an opportunity as they did in the beginning to give their last assessment as to why Death is Final, or not.

I was more focused on Sean's response and reiteration of respect for people and their beliefs. This was important to me. When Moody spoke of the work that he had been doing for the last forty years with regard to NDEs and the listening to people about these experiences, these were genuine stories of,  "Death was not Final"  for Moody. I was encouraged by the votes last night, not for which side supposedly won, but by the uncertainty(final 12%) as to the question of what remains as a definitive, as to Death is Final. These shows to me that people in the end still do not know, and that,  they could not be decisive. This to me,  leaves room for work to be done.

I also liked Sean Carroll's response too,  the responsibility of acceptance as to how one may look at life given the perspective of responsibility he has having accepted his position on Death is Final. Of course he might used,  when he was a child, as one might use as Moody did, as was his thrust to understand astronomy.

I believe this to be sincere, and such a question about death that would come to all in the child's mind, a determiner of what the future would bring for him as he sat on that panel. Not so much as a Skeptic full blooded, so as to be glib with the response of,  as if Steve Novella was the amazing Randi and waited for the bet that has not been collected. :) But to remain open, as the undecided results spoke toward, as if,  more information would be needed to make a final definitive statement.

So anyway, another moment stood out in regard to Sean Carroll's response to a woman about where the energy goes once we die. His analogy of a flame going out was like the hammer statement used above, as used in the repertoire of such a question about energy and death. What I liked about the response, was as to where it put the woman in mind. If you have ever come to the point of a logical constructive immobilizing one's position, as it was on the face this woman wore,  as to where the woman could go next. That final deductive state is an important one to me.

I have much more to say about reductionism and how that research is important to me as if the table would be permanent as the atom that make it up, would be a table ad infinitive. So as sure as, matter in all it's constitutions have been described, as to say I am pointing right a it?:) We are not objects like the table. The analogy of the narrative is always important as it is spoken, and as subjective and alone as it might seem there is the greater picture of the story of the NDEr.

I must say too, that the idea of reductionism as much as materialism, causes flinches in those who speak about spiritual things, would make one from that side speak about what is not reducible?  Since energy is an important topic and how we use configuration space to surmise  it's existence,  it becomes a classification of matter. I would assume there is much still to be ascertained.  I read the blogs of other scientists who are at the front with questions phenomenologically expressed that want to see where the science goes next. Just as we have been taken t the limits of where the identification of the Higg's operates and what that energy range is.

Euclid

Socratica Studios

Maybe you can identify the section from which this picture is taken from. The picture seen in the Fresco painted by Raphael, is entitled the School of Athens in  heading above?:)

All those who have written histories bring to this point their account of the development of this science. Not long after these men came Euclid, who brought together the Elements, systematizing many of the theorems of Eudoxus, perfecting many of those of Theatetus, and putting in irrefutable demonstrable form propositions that had been rather loosely established by his predecessors. He lived in the time of Ptolemy the First, for Archimedes, who lived after the time of the first Ptolemy, mentions Euclid. It is also reported that Ptolemy once asked Euclid if there was not a shorter road to geometry that through the Elements, and Euclid replied that there was no royal road to geometry. He was therefore later than Plato's group but earlier than Eratosthenes and Archimedes, for these two men were contemporaries, as Eratosthenes somewhere says. Euclid belonged to the persuasion of Plato and was at home in this philosophy; and this is why he thought the goal of the Elements as a whole to be the construction of the so-called Platonic figures. (Proclus, ed. Friedlein, p. 68, tr. Morrow)

All-sky map

All-sky map of the CMB, created from 9 years of WMAP data

Comparison of CMB results from COBE, WMAP and Planck – March 21, 2013.

Working out what happened in the moments after the Big Bang is difficult. Scientists can come up with theories, but in the end they are useful only if they can be tested. Nobel prizewinner Robert Laughlin is passionate about experiments. He challenges the students in this film, and laureate David Gross, to come up with ways to test our big ideas about the Universe. The two laureates make a bet. Watch the film to find out more and to decide who wins.See:Betting on the cosmos - with David Gross and Robert Laughlin

See Also:

• http://www.eskesthai.com/2013/03/our-baby-universe-with-ed-copeland.html
• http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/research/gr/public/cs_top.html
• http://www.eskesthai.com/2013/04/hearing-shape-of-drum.html

Who is the Clockmaker?

Crucifixion (Corpus Hypercubus) - oil painting by Salvador Dalí

I see a clock, but I cannot envision the clockmaker. The human mind is unable to conceive of the four dimensions, so how can it conceive of a God, before whom a thousand years and a thousand dimensions are as one?

• From Cosmic religion: with other opinions and aphorisms (1931), Albert Einstein, pub. Covici-Friede. Quoted in The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press; 2nd edition (May 30, 2000); Page 208, ISBN 0691070210

The phrase of course stuck in my mind. Who is the clockmaker. I was more at ease with what Einstein quote spoke about with regards to the fourth dimension and here, thoughts of Dali made their way into my head.

The watchmaker analogy, watchmaker fallacy, or watchmaker argument, is a teleological argument. By way of an analogy, the argument states that design implies a designer. The analogy has played a prominent role in natural theology and the "argument from design," where it was used to support arguments for the existence of God and for the intelligent design of the universe.

The most famous statement of the teleological argument using the watchmaker analogy was given by William Paley in his 1802 book. The 1859 publication of Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection put forward an alternative explanation for complexity and adaptation, and so provided a counter-argument to the watchmaker analogy. Richard Dawkins referred to the analogy in his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker giving his explanation of evolution.

In the United States, starting in the 1960s, creationists revived versions of the argument to dispute the concepts of evolution and natural selection, and there was renewed interest in the watchmaker argument.

I have always shied away from the argument based on the analogy, fallacy and argument, as I wanted to show my thoughts here regardless of what had been transmitted and exposed on an objective level argument. Can I do this without incurring the wrought of a perspective in society and share my own?

I mean even Dali covered the Tesseract by placing Jesus on the cross in a sense Dali was exposing something that such dimensional significance may have been implied as some degree of Einstein's quote above? Of course I speculate but it always being held to some idea of a dimensional constraint that no other words can speak of it other then it's science. Which brings me back to Einstein's quote.

The construction of a hypercube can be imagined the following way:

• 1-dimensional: Two points A and B can be connected to a line, giving a new line segment AB.
• 2-dimensional: Two parallel line segments AB and CD can be connected to become a square, with the corners marked as ABCD.
• 3-dimensional: Two parallel squares ABCD and EFGH can be connected to become a cube, with the corners marked as ABCDEFGH.
• 4-dimensional: Two parallel cubes ABCDEFGH and IJKLMNOP can be connected to become a hypercube, with the corners marked as ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP.

So for me it is about what lays at the basis of reality as to question that all our experiences, in some way masks the inevitable design at a deeper level of perceptions so as to say that such a diagram is revealing.

I operate from this principal given the understanding that all experience is part of the diagram of the logic of a visual reasoning in which such examples are dispersed upon our assessments of the day. While Einstein spoke, he had a reason from which such quote espoused the picture he had in his head?

Also too if I were to deal with the subjectivity of our perceptions then how could I ever be clear as I muddy the waters of such straight lines and such with all the pictures of a dream by Pauli?  I ask that however you look at the plainness of the dream expanded by Jung, that one consider the pattern underneath it all.  I provide 2 links below for examination.

This page lists the regular polytopes in Euclidean, spherical and hyperbolic spaces. Clicking on any picture will magnify it.

The Schläfli symbol notation describes every regular polytope, and is used widely below as a compact reference name for each.

The regular polytopes are grouped by dimension and subgrouped by convex, nonconvex and infinite forms. Nonconvex forms use the same vertices as the convex forms, but have intersecting facets. Infinite forms tessellate a one lower dimensional Euclidean space.

Infinite forms can be extended to tessellate a hyperbolic space. Hyperbolic space is like normal space at a small scale, but parallel lines diverge at a distance. This allows vertex figures to have negative angle defects, like making a vertex with 7 equilateral triangles and allowing it to lie flat. It cannot be done in a regular plane, but can be at the right scale of a hyperbolic plane.

See Also:

Pauli's World Clock

• Divine Contenders: Wolfgang Pauli and the Symmetry of the World

Answers to Question-Interesting

It seems the opportune time when thinking about positions people adopt, that one realizes that one is not in a class of their own, but do definitely belong to a group of people in regard to a response from a survey. While not a part of that culture, can one say, this is a representative example of what appears in society, as a reflection?

Relax if you are a theoretical scientist or a physicist, because the issue of acceptance of any philosophical view comes into question for you?

So with a science thinking back ground, layman style, my bias definitely shows through, and I feel good about it. Not that I ever felt bad when learning from others and being respective of their idealizations as leaders in science.

Academics of all stripes enjoy conducting informal polls of their peers to gauge the popularity of different stances on controversial issues. But the philosophers — and in particular, David Bourget & David Chalmers — have decided to be more systematic about it. (Maybe they have more controversial issues to discuss?) See: What Do Philosophers Believe?

 Abstract objects: Platonism or nominalism?

Lean toward: nominalism	210 / 931 (22.6%)
Accept: Platonism	184 / 931 (19.8%)
Lean toward: Platonism	182 / 931 (19.5%)
Accept: nominalism	141 / 931 (15.1%)
Agnostic/undecided	47 / 931 (5.0%)
Accept another alternative	46 / 931 (4.9%)
Reject both	34 / 931 (3.7%)
Insufficiently familiar with the issue	26 / 931 (2.8%)
Accept an intermediate view	21 / 931 (2.3%)
The question is too unclear to answer	19 / 931 (2.0%)
Skip	9 / 931 (1.0%)
There is no fact of the matter	8 / 931 (0.9%)
Other	2 / 931 (0.2%)
Accept both	2 / 931 (0.2%)

"

James Robert Brown - Plato's Heaven: a User's Guide

Geometry Expressed, Hidden In Ancient Design

If the late character of our sources may incite us to doubt the authenticity of this tradition, there remains that, in its spirit, it is in no way out of character, as can be seen by reading or rereading what Plato says about the sciences fit for the formation of philosophers in book VII of the Republic, and especially about geometry at Republic, VII, 526c8-527c11. We should only keep in mind that, for Plato, geometry, as well as all other mathematical sciences, is not an end in itself, but only a prerequisite meant to test and develop the power of abstraction in the student, that is, his ability to go beyond the level of sensible experience which keeps us within the "visible" realm, that of the material world, all the way to the pure intelligible. And geometry, as can be seen through the experiment with the slave boy in the Meno (Meno, 80d1-86d2), can also make us discover the existence of truths (that of a theorem of geometry such as, in the case of the Meno, the one about doubling a square) that may be said to be "transcendant" in that they don't depend upon what we may think about them, but have to be accepted by any reasonable being, which should lead us into wondering whether such transcendant truths might not exist as well in other areas, such as ethics and matters relating to men's ultimate happiness, whether we may be able to "demonstrate" them or not.See: Frequently Asked Questions about Plato by Bernard SUZANNE

Academy was a suburb of Athens, named after the hero Academos or Ecademos. The site was continuously inhabited from the prehistoric period until the 6th century A.D. During the 6th century B.C., one of the three famous Gymnasiums of Athens was founded here. Moreover, it is recorded that Hippias, the son of Peisistratos, built a circuit wall, and Cimon planted the area with trees which were destroyed by Sulla in 86 B.C. In 387 B.C. Plato founded his philosophical school, which became very famous due to the Neoplatonists, and remained in use until A.D. 526, when it was finally closed down by emperor Justinian.

I relay some thoughts I have had with regard to an emergent process.  I think it incorporates a view I have about the geometries hidden in nature that are designed toward expression of some of the historical understanding of this need to apply "fundamentals."  These constructs are in  ephemeral states of existence as if expressed as an idea.  As idea, these become matter orientated views as "a method of approach."

 Learning to identify the schematic usage of geometrical design as an inherent basis of expression, was to understand that intent had this basic design as a malleable feature in the nature of probabilistic outcomes of experience?

In order for us to understand this "world view" as applied to the nature of the reality, it is assumed such fundamentals(all basic models) reveal some of the ways in which we will adopt the reality as expressed?  We are active participants regardless aren't we,  which might mean, there is still some room with which to form, "a more comprehensive view of the type of fundamentals" necessary for such a world view?

IN that sense, the basis of geometrical exploration, as a set of possible outcomes, was to see schematically, that such usage was necessary in understanding what Einstein was able to reveal once adopting, Grossmann's realizations.

By pointing toward Riemann's realization, and this underlying framework of experience as a possible outcome of a universal expression, showed the way to this projector type of geometry, as a dynamical view of this "gravitation inclusion," as a process toward forming that intent.

So of course historical analysis became an important function for me so as to look at the way in which such a historical school,  might have used this method in order to attain the desired student. One who would  face the continuing  search for  such fundamentals. Of course nothing said this is "set in stone." I am laughing right now.  I will use such a structure so as to show you this method.

This was revealed to me in the statement of Hameroff and Penrose, as a process in the cyclic expression of the universe. Using, geometrical design. Looking at emergence as geometrical underlying process of the universe in expression. This was to see an underlying format of constructive phases of experience.

So, not by the idea that such singularity as the nature of such expression, but that by such intent, is an outcome toward the nature of the geometry as dynamical views of as, K minus or plus, as metric aversions of the dynamical process of out comes as the universe in such expression?

While I cannot say for certain, these are the tendencies of Plato, in my thoughts it was for him, to seek and define reality in pursuance of foundation building blocks. Although too, it may not  be true to today's world, it was sufficient then to describe reality as it contained the "ancientness of belief" about an astronomical processes that existed in nature.

While again it may not have been the best way, it reveals some deeper thinking about alchemist methods as they were adopted and transformed. This  in Greek culture of the philosophers arose from one generation to the next.  It then became a method by which one could internalize transformation.

Such model building was to build the ideological,  by the discussing of these analogical methods to purify oneself of the grossness of nature embedded within the material world?

 How much finer such methods then  but to distillate the process for what begins as to it's beginning,  exists as a some, " Prima Materia."  This then became matter defined as the grossness of our experiences,  could lead from any asymmetrical notion of this symmetry in the beginning?

Logic is the art of thinking; grammar, the art of inventing symbols and combining them to express thought; and rhetoric, the art of communicating thought from one mind to another, the adaptation of language to circumstance.Sister Miriam Joseph

The quadrivium comprised the four subjects, or arts, taught in medieval universities after the trivium. The word is Latin, meaning "the four ways" or "the four roads". Together, the trivium and the quadrivium comprised the seven liberal arts.[1] The quadrivium consisted of arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy. These followed the preparatory work of the trivium made up of grammar, logic (or dialectic, as it was called at the times), and rhetoric. In turn, the quadrivium was considered preparatory work for the serious study of philosophy and theology.

So while it may be fleeting that such a design may indicate the unification of the Trivium with the Quadrivium, such a completion was inherently significant not just for the presence of adaptation in any school.

Intuitive knowledge is free from partiality or dualism; it has overcome the extremes of stressing subject or object. It is the vision of a world-synthesis, the experience of cosmic consciousness where the Infinite is realised not only conceptually but actually. (p233) Lama Anagarika Govinda, Creative Meditation and Multidimensional Consciousness, 1977

In my thoughts such a design was necessary as  to impose a "model design" that indicated that such adaption in Plato's school amounted to something so solid? A method.

Such integration was necessary so as to realize that such a model built was to survive not only the objective world as a solid,  but was also to realize that such unification could exist within ourselves. Bringing together this liberal arts as a measure of success was to delineate each subjective facet of experience so as to realize that one could transcend the material world, by such realizations which may have took one back to the beginning.

While in this sense artistic expressionism of Raphael's picture in the heading of this site, such a realization was to signify that such a pursuat was necessary and represented the coming together of Aristotle and Plato in the very centre of that world. It required us to become closely associated to the "beginning point" of what was allowed in terms of what is self evident as an inductive deductive process of unfolding.

This was our internal teacher/student dialogue that becomes necessary in order to proceed with dealing with the  truths as they come to us in our realizations.

It was the uniqueness of the individual to which although each truth revealed it's successes with regard to that individual's development, in the larger scheme of things,  it asked us to proceed with a method so as to deal with the science of life? To be inquisitive, but grounded in this teacher/student relationship so as to move forward and experience the world.

See Also:

• Music in Plato's Academy