So, every "story line" is about a Journey? IN Angel and Demons, we follow the story of Professor Robert Langdon.
The Vatican summons Professor Robert Langdon (Tom Hanks) and Vittoria Vetra (Ayelet Zurer) from CERN to help them solve the Illuminati's threat, save the four preferiti, and find the hidden bomb. Langdon listens to the Illuminati message and deduces that the four cardinals will die at the four altars of the Path of Illumination. See: Angels and Demons
So in relation, I pointed out that Dan's Brown's book which I read, and the film I have yet to see has it's differences, while we see the transfer from one medium to the next. Same storyline. Pirsig's touch with the recognition of the Chautauquas, "the traveling tent-show Chautauquas that used to move across America, this America, the one that we are now in, an old-time series of popular talks intended to edify and entertain, improve the mind and bring culture and enlightenment to the ears and thoughts of the hearer."
Anyway, I presented the Dialogues of Plato and the Plays of William Shakespeare as forums in which characters real or imagined, help to move forward the reader under "ideological progressions," as if, dealing with this inductive/ deductive realization of information and probable outcomes once given the scenarios which are displayed for the mind to entertain.
Earlier in this thread I had mentioned Robert Pirsig and it is here as well I mention, "The Beautiful Mind." Both situations here are recognition of the Demons both indivudals(John Forbes Nash) under go, as their story written is told in a life lesson and in John Nashes case, a film. Must we recognize that genius courts closely the aberrations of a sane and inquisitive mind, who looses touch with reality. Not so different then, when one who holds to this "other agenda of the Illuminati" in the Angel here Demons story here?
After suffering a nervous breakdown, Pirsig spent time in and out of mental hospitals from 1961 – 1963. After undergoing a psychiatric evaluation, he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and clinical depression, and was treated with shock therapy. Pirsig had made a progressive recovery and had discontinued psychotherapy in 1964. He later began working as a freelance writer. See: Robert Pirsig
So who was Robert Pirsig's Demon(Daemon)?
The words daemon, dæmon, are Latinized spellings of the Greek δαίμων (daimôn),[1] used purposely today to distinguish the daemons of Ancient Greek religion, good or malevolent "supernatural beings between mortals and gods, such as inferior divinities and ghosts of dead heroes" (see Plato's Symposium), from the Judeo-Christian usage demon, a malignant spirit that can seduce, afflict, or possess humans See:Daemon (mythology)
If one has the chance to read Robert Pirsig's book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance , one should most certainly do so. I had seen this book lying around over the years and never really gave it much notice until a gentlemen spoke to me about the issue of "Quality and the Good."
Being a reader of Plato and seeing this influence in science today, I was after something quite substantial as I look to see how ideas could enter the mind, and that in general, not to conceive of it as an portend of evil( that Daemon), but as an acquisition of the inquiring mind of the student to reveal "a higher wisdom" resides in each of us.
This was part of setting the stage if you might, to recognizing this "dual nature," as an inductive/deductive relation we use in our relationship with the world. So in this sense, a scientific position and responsibility of becoming an open person to receive information, as you delve ever deeper into the nature of things. I am not saying this is the way it is, just that it is a "point of view" I was able to gather, once one does their own homework. Pays attention to the politics. What is "self evident?"
So indeed Noise presents a "climatic realization of assumption after assumption." In the real world, we are only armed with what we are expose too? Is this not the way it seems? Why such medium exposure might be thought of, as to the "way the world is according too," which point of view. You have to be given the power back for discernment of what it means to you and ever the role of a scientific mind as to inquiry, for being responsible.
The conclusion of the whole matter is just this,—that until a man knows the truth, and the manner of adapting the truth to the natures of other men, he cannot be a good orator; also, that the living is better than the written word, and that the principles of justice and truth when delivered by word of mouth are the legitimate offspring of a man’s own bosom, and their lawful descendants take up their abode in others. Such an orator as he is who is possessed of them, you and I would fain become. And to all composers in the world, poets, orators, legislators, we hereby announce that if their compositions are based upon these principles, then they are not only poets, orators, legislators, but philosophers.
It is important to know then that Robert Pirsig's Angel or Daemon, was Phaedrus( depends on how you look at it in terms of what was given to Pirsig). As real or imagined the story line in the Journey across America with his son, was the realization of the lost years in an identity that went on a excursion, and never came home until the breakdown. John Nash had his own characters in the film, discovered later on, were the imaginings of a mind, lost in the battle of what is real with paranoid schizophrenia. For John Nash it was always then later on in dealing with reality the struggle of who John Nash was while facing these imaginary people.
So while I say "real or imagined" one understands fully here that while we had identified the use of characters under the notion of "creative writing of Plato or of Bacon's Shakespeare," it was apparent that in the cases that I have sighted of Robert Pirsig and John Nash, that while sick mentally, genius and brilliance were courted.
While I would point to John Nashes mathematical astuteness while sick, I am more wanting to point out the "Quality and the Good" of Pirsig as I continue. This is an understanding of that finer attribute of theoretical thinking that we ventured too. To see if reality by experimentation thusly engendered, then qualifies. How indeed did progression be marked if it did not allow one to see anew, with a new perspective and experiments are validated. In sociological thinking of our everyday, how did our assumptions prove we were thinking theoretically, while assessing the politico defalcates of position and inherent of a party? What is the basis of this discernment then we can discriminate the truth of applied rights of constitutions written for democracies were written for freedoms and rights?
Hi Plato,
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be fascinated with what happens to those that find greater depth of meaning behind what is the obvious. Yes those like Pirsig, Nash, Godel and Cantor had for a time appeared to be effected by what they found. I would ask if it was they who became damaged by the experience or had it altered our perception of them in respect to our own plain of existence as to what be the truth? That is as Plato reminded:
“ And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.”
There have been others that have stood in the light who did not seem so effected, yet I wonder if it be more on account of what they refrained from revealing as opposed to what they learned and thus wait for a day when others ascend before they speak more freely about what they have found. I’m thus reminded of a quote of Benoit Mandelbrot from James Gleick’s book Chaos where he said:
“Intuition is not something that is given. I’ve trained my intuition to accept as obvious shapes which where initially rejected as being absurd, and I find everyone else can do the same.” -page 102
I would hope that Mandelbrot is correct in this as Plato had first been convinced. Yet at least for now we can look upon objects and process which such understanding can envision.
Best,
Phil
Hi Plato,
ReplyDeleteJust as a postscript to the last:
"Clouds are not spheres, mountains are not cones, coastlines are not circles, and bark is not smooth, nor does lightning travel in a straight line."
—Mandelbrot, in his introduction to The Fractal Geometry of Nature
Best,
Phil
Hi Phil,
ReplyDeleteI would ask if it was they who became damaged by the experience or had it altered our perception of them in respect to our own plain of existence as to what be the truth?I think there is a time line in which to consider. Would one say that they were not suffering while this excursion into, while in such a state? This in regards to John Nash and Pirsig?
So the focus is on the "subject given forth and identified," came out of that time. You see?
I wrote "insanity seems to court brilliance."
then you write...."or had it altered our perception of them in respect to our own plain of existence as to what be the truth."For me, the brilliance during that time does not in any way allow me to be judgmental about the state of the person as a opinion of them, yet I am awed at what came out of the struggle in their lives in that time.
By example, you show me the quote, then I click on the page of the quote, then I click on the context of the quote, then I click on part of a chapter, that is when I click on to show the context of the quote as part of the whole book.
So the analogy ( the Cave) is part of some book, and what context is it used, while I see what context that you use it. Shall I discard the whole book in face of what you present?
More to the point then, about the Cave and what transpires, and yes you could say....fascinated with what happens to those that find greater depth of meaning behind what is the obvious.Phil:There have been others that have stood in the light who did not seem so effected, yet I wonder if it be more on account of what they refrained from revealing as opposed to what they learned and thus wait for a day when others ascend before they speak more freely about what they have found.In context of the experiences as I saw them, it was as if they are looking backward to see that what is written is progressively been the substance of what must be moved forward. IN reflection al that what was experienced what was the struggle to identify, that each person could finally say who they were after such a sickness," as a reminder of who is real and who is not. They had to keep reaffirming as to their person, Pirsig or Nash, to realize that the imaginary courted their struggle for a truth inherent at the basis of reality. I twas something they were able to pick out.
So in that case it was not normal experience that suffered, but what came out of the sickness that allowed an "ultimate realization" that you or I do not have to contend with, but sick men who struggle to search and found something, that normal people would not. So this is why the time line is important to be realized.
I do not discount that the light can affect any normal wo/man. Yet, there is a process to such discernment that is readily available. An inductive deductive approach that leads to what is "self evident." It does not say we had yet experimented, only that in time, such a moment or aha, can be seen as a ultimate journey to what was discovered by sick men, that normal people can experience too. You see?
Phil in quoting-“Intuition is not something that is given. I’ve trained my intuition to accept as obvious shapes which where initially rejected as being absurd, and I find everyone else can do the same.” -page 102It was a "process" to be able to identify as such? This statement came later? You see?
Phil:There have been others that have stood in the light who did not seem so effected, yet I wonder if it be more on account of what they refrained from revealing as opposed to what they learned and thus wait for a day when others ascend before they speak more freely about what they have found...../cont
.../cont
ReplyDeleteThis is part of what I think about the process, that given a conceptual tool for moving forward, one's views of the world have changed. Just as if, one takes part of the author of the books views and accepts them into there own ideological framework of their inner most being and thusly transformed forever.
The world before reading that book has altered perception, and for the reader, the world is never the same as it was before. It is as if they had stood in the light of the reason which has been now presented. It's not that you had stood in the light, but that you have shifted the tonal that exists around you and you see from a different point, then what you always been accustom too.
While standing in the light we think enlightenment, but in every moment there is this possibility of our views changing who we are.
Best,
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Plato,
ReplyDelete“The world before reading that book has altered perception, and for the reader, the world is never the same as it was before.”
I am happy yet not surprised that you where so affected by the book, much as I had been and still find being since. Like you I had heard of it before, not quite knowing what it was about or for that matter cared. This was brought to my attention by someone for whom I hold great respect and appreciation in relation to more than this. The greatest thing I learned from him was as Mandelbrot reminds is that intuition is not something to be trusted unless examined and worked upon and that it comes as much from the outside as from within.
I found this consistent with what I discovered about others whom I consider as having been the benefactor of the same realization. It’s like keen eyesight has little value unless one learns where best to focus your gaze. Plato was the first recorded to have known this and Pirsig I’m certain will not be the last. Unfortunately we now live in an age where isolated facts are more often mistaken for being knowledge and that any connection between them are at best only seen as relationships, rather than the consequence of the truth of which they share.
“Somebody who only reads newspapers and at best books of contemporary authors looks to me like an extremely near-sighted person who scorns eyeglasses. He is completely dependent on the prejudices and fashions of his times, since he never gets to see or hear anything else. And what a person thinks on his own without being stimulated by the thoughts and experiences of other people is even in the best case rather paltry and monotonous. There are only a few enlightened people with a lucid mind and style and with good taste within a century. What has been preserved of their work belongs among the most precious possessions of mankind. We owe it to a few writers of antiquity (Plato, Aristotle, etc.) that the people in the Middle Ages could slowly extricate themselves from the superstitions and ignorance that had darkened life for more than half a millennium. Nothing is more needed to overcome the modernist's snobbishness.”
=Albert Einstein
Best,
Phil
Phil:The greatest thing I learned from him was as Mandelbrot reminds is that intuition is not something to be trusted unless examined and worked upon and that it comes as much from the outside as from within.
ReplyDeleteI will have to look into this deeper. I do appreciate the time you have taken to point myself in directions that have become things with which I can examine myself and my surroundings.
So what has been dine for you has been pay forward by helping in this way. So I do appreciate it.
Best,
Hi Plato,
ReplyDeletePaid forward, that’s a good way to look at it. It will be interesting then who might be its next recipient :-)
Best,
Phil
Phil:It will be interesting then who might be its next recipient :-)
ReplyDeleteIn my view every step forward to enhancement of any position is an adoption of principle, unconsciously or by change in view, is a step or pay forward scheme.
Quote from Scienceblogs,"Shifting Literature by Jennifer L. Jacquet?
Ursula Le Guin
In its silence, a book is a challenge: it can't lull you with surging music or deafen you with screeching laugh tracks or fire gunshots in your living room; you have to listen to it in your head. A book won't move your eyes for you the way images on a screen do. It won't move your mind unless you give it your mind, or your heart unless you put your heart in it. It won't do the work for you. To read a story well is to follow it, to act it, to feel it, to become it--everything short of writing it, in fact. Reading is not "interactive" with a set of rules or options, as games are; reading is actual collaboration with the writer's mind. No wonder not everybody is up to it.
Best,
Hi Plato,
ReplyDelete“Reading is not "interactive" with a set of rules or options, as games are; reading is actual collaboration with the writer's mind. No wonder not everybody is up to it.”
Thanks Plato, these words certainly capture the powerful abstract nature of reading and writing. It is also indicative of our present state of the world, where only the shortest assembly of words can penetrate to reach the average mind. Is it then not ironic and sad that in a time when the expansion of understanding is so sorely needed, rather than decreased, the best most can do is to twitter and be tweeted:-)
Best,
Phil
Hi Phil,
ReplyDeleteEven the Twitter has to be able to resonate with those who are looking?:)
Factoids and Censorship
Plato:Ray Bradbury rejected part of the mold "of who and what limits such a participation of self to the truth" was the message that betrays the deeper recognition of what we may assign to our fellow creatures on earth. Shall we learn the truth of who we are now being limited by using the distinctions and factoids, now becomes the way of hiding the deeper relevancy the messages have about that truth? Were we acquiescence to such numbing? Then, Wake-UP!:)
So you see how tidbits you thrown my way were not callously forgotten.:)
Best,
Hi Plato,
ReplyDeleteYes, the Ray Bradbury connection. It’s seems that voices such as his along with the spirit of Marshall McLuhan still are left unheard for the most part. In as you retained some of what I have said so have I with you. In relation to this there has been another surprising occurrence and that is the one I told you I was so greatly influenced by has just popped in over at Backreaction. This after a brief exchange we had which was the first we’ve had in the past little while.
Best,
Phil
Hi Phil,
ReplyDeleteYou Bohemians are all alike?:)
But yes, students have a special affinity for their teachers(exchanges of info that can lead to alterations in perspective now forever indebt) getting science into one's blood is like having gold fever.
So your now looking for those precious gold nuggets.
You know then by our association that "the metal is more then," and while holding "this analogy" one has to have a keen eye on the glitter of twitter?:)"Fact or centroids" to discover that there are always hints out there that lead too, and then are erased as to reveal what now is only "common knowledge."
It's just the way of ingenuity "gone common" and then you do the "go around" all over again.
Best,
Oh more on "Panning for Gold" here or here.
ReplyDeleteBy such an occasion, at the time by coincidence my wife and I had taken our children to a river to pan. So the correlation was touching to me.:)
It should be understood that "diversity of thinking then" had not been limited to Gold "as a product" in the sense of wealth but it's "search for meaning." The attaining of something specific "creatively," once you knew how to look for it.
Socrates could hear it between the words of those he was speaking too, or at least, in an attempt to draw out of them that better part of who they are, while going through the population. It's as if you have to listen very carefully between the heartbeat, or between "moments in time," and it's ever finer measure of perspective.
Such diversity in thinking was applied as to wisdom attained then in wo/men, as Plato spoke about wo/men of metal.
I tend to agree.
You see?
Best,
"Our children," should read....grand children.
ReplyDeletehello,
ReplyDeleteI can see you are interested in angels and demons. don't know if ever heard about Maxwell's demon. anyway, cant see if you ever talked about it.
it is said, it might be not a demon at all, but an angel (the Maxwell's demon). so some people call it Maxwell's angel.
interesting subject to know about, I fell.
there is an article I feel everyone should read. it is about Chaos, Complexity and Entropy which to many of my friends I recommend to read. here is the title and a part of it's preface:
Chaos, Complexity, and Entropy
(A physics talk for non-physicists)
Michel Baranger
Twentieth-century theoretical physics came out of the relativistic revolution and the
quantum mechanical revolution. It was all about simplicity and continuity (in spite of quantum jumps). Its principal tool was calculus. Its final expression was field theory.
Twenty-first-century theoretical physics is coming out of the chaos revolution. It will be about complexity and its principal tool will be the computer. Its final expression remains to be found. Thermodynamics, as a vital part of theoretical physics, will partake in the transformation.
good luck
Hi زاويه ديد
ReplyDeleteIn regards to Maxwell's Demon, and in the context you are saying it with regards to this post. Yes, I see what you mean.
Thank you very much for the information.
....and may luck go with you always.